14 January 2011

Conspiracy Theories? They really are out to get you... or are they?

Want to buy into a conspiracy theory? There are plenty of them out there in internet land but what is it all about, really? After all, the lack of evidence proves that the conspiracy is working?



 Theorist One

“Just who the hell do you think you people are? You are very, very, dangerous people indeed. Your obsession with creating this Euro State means that you're happy to destroy democracy. You appear to be happy for millions and millions to become unemployed and to be poor. Untold millions must suffer so that your Euro dream can continue." Nigel Farage MEP

Oz Tvc

Euroscepticism and your fear of the notion that integration weakens the nation state is very nationalistic mate. The nation state fears the citizen state. Nationalists demand sovereignty and supreme independent authority over a geographical area and its laws. Citizenship carries with it personal responsibilities and rights and works towards the betterment of the community. Nationalism believes that citizenship should be limited to one ethnic group and that the state is more important than the people. Nigel Farage is a nationalist, divisive prick...


Theorist Two

I would say you've completely missed the point Oz!

Nigel Farage - whether you personally dislike him or not - is simply pointing out the fact that the EU is a dictatorship of unelected bureaucrats who couldn't give a flying f*** about anyone except themselves and their pay packets. When you add to that the fact that the EEC was dreamt up by the Nazis in 1942, you begin to realise that not only is what Mr Farage is saying absolutely correct but that the EU is a VERY, VERY dangerous organisation that must be stopped in its tracks. Personally I couldn't give a shit whether I was French, Spanish, German, Muslim, Hindu etc. etc. just so long as I live in a true democracy - something which no one alive has ever experienced - and if they believe they have they are completely deluded.

Oz Tvc

Stopped and replaced with what? Aren’t euro MP's voted in democratically?

Theorist Two


Did I mention replacing it?!

In a Parliamentary democracy like the UK, the Executive Branch is appointed from among the elected Legislature.

In the EU the Commission is the Executive. They are the people making all the EU laws that govern the member states. And yet they are not accountable to the general public at all. They are only elected by the 27 people on the Council. They cannot be removed by the general public. They don't have a shred of democratic legitimacy.

Theorist One

Firstly I will not defend your judgement of me as you are entitled to it (and besides your my good friend ;-) x )


Secondly I think the terms you are using smack of and sound like the same old 3rd party terms tried sorry tired and tested political claptrap used by political commentators news papers and mp's to avoid and divide the real issue which is people. People and their struggle just to avoid the bullet and stay alive in some places and in others try and make ends meet.


Europe in itself is a region but those who seek to control it are more than divisive they have a plan which they are proud of and anyone who wants to find out about it does not have to dig very far.


Citizenship definitely carries with it personal responsibility, a responsibility to care and input a responsibility to speak out when you see something is wrong, something is very wrong.


I realised this when the police shut down party after party after party.


I realised this more when people begun to accepted this as ok.

Nigel Farage pointed out something that is very real and very true, he may be a divisive prick but there again I’ve never met him.....


Oz Tvc

Your approach and the way you discuss issues somewhat concerns me and the people who know and care for you. I am not spouting the 'same old claptrap’; these are accepted terms we all use to discuss these ideas. You can have your opinion, sure, but not at the expense of shouting down the rest of us.



All this talk of Illuminati, Nazis, destroying democracy is very concerning and if it is true and real then you could probably count me into your theory.

According to Wikipedia the EU commission proposes legislation then implements decisions.


Just what is your point theorist Two? I'm getting confused now and the more stuff you and Theorist One post on FaceBook the more confused I get trying to understand what you are trying to say.


The EU is a Nazi illuminate type conspiracy hell bent on destroying democracy?


It is still an interesting discussion though. Sure beats hearing about what people had for breakfast and what time they went to bed ;-)



Theorist One

Sure is and I do appreciate concerns for me :-)

Yes ever since that 1st acid trip I have kept my mind pretty close to the edge of what most people consider reality and the accepted norm, whatever they are.


I always wondered why the whole love and peace movement got tarred with the term which even I’ve laughed at "Stupid Hippy".


After a bit of investigation it was obvious love and peace cramped the style of the War and weapons manufacturers and unless peace was allowed to become the accepted norm something had to be done about it.
As I'm sure with your knowledge of underground culture anything which is counter to what the government or controlling faction wants that starts to gather momentum is quickly nipped in the bud by many and varied different means depending on the country and culture and what can be used to thwart it.

I have spent a lot of time looking into why this is and it seems that there is indeed for want of a better word a conspiracy or more correctly a plan on a very large scale, one so large and far reaching that it rocks the very fabric of our taught history and our perception of reality.

For me to say something like this will cause people to question my sanity and indeed what i have read seen and experienced to arrive at this conclusion.


Well my answer is if you want to understand Math study Math.


And if you want to understand law study law,


I wanted to know and understand why we are here, where we came from, how reality works, what it is and how we can create a loving caring planet.


I'm obsessed with it; I can't understand how a person cannot be completely fascinated by these questions. I am willing to read and listen to anybody and anything which may give me the answers I’m looking for. This does not mean I am gullible, far from it. I got to where I am now by questioning, investigating, reading and intuition.


I don't have a good memory. It's very difficult for me to site facts, times, dates and references, to back up all that I believe. But that does not make my findings null and void it just means I’ve got a shit memory.


If someone asked me to show them something I have seen or read which led me to question reality and history as the mainstream media and mainstream scientific and historical community portray I can do that. In fact I could probably find them an updated version of or presentation by someone who's good at that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean i agree with them lock stock and barrel it means it's pretty close to what I think.


Phew!.............x


Oz Tvc


Go for it Theorist One. All I’m trying to do is understand your arguments and POV.


Theorist One


Oz.... you more than anyone else over the years has made me question my motives and reasons for doing things and feeling the way i do. You help me clarify what is important to me and understand who i am i don't know why but it's kind of cosmic! You will always have a special place in my heart!


Theorist Two


Hi Oz. Just a quick reply Re." what's my point?" And bearing in mind this is my opinion based on the reading and research I have done during the past 5 years ... and you won't find this information on the BBC (Receives funding from the E...U in direct contravention to the BBC charter -http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3257748.ece) or indeed any of the mainstream media because the main players in the mainstream media are closely allied with the people pulling the strings ...


My point is there is a global conspiracy and only those people who are willing to accept that this might be a possibility have any chance of beginning to see just how deep the Rabbit hole goes.




"all this talk of illuminati, Nazis, destroying democracy is very concerning and if it is true and real then you could probably count me into your theory." - All I can say to you is if you seriously want to find out if anything I am saying is true, you need to first rid yourself of any pre-conceptions regarding the world in which you live, and I'm sorry if that sounds patronising but looking into conspiracies whilst believing there's no such thing is like trying to lift a table whilst standing on it!


Re. chemtrails, this is a good place to start
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chemtrail-Watchers/77065926441
and definitely watch this new documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9rXydMmfw


And this guy has some useful information re. The EU, although he's dead now unfortunately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jug-W-DKcms

http://www.prisonplanet.com/  is another good resource for links to various news stories of note as is the headline page at www.davidicke.com/headlines  


I'm not asking you to agree with anything I'm saying but simply to be open minded enough to consider that unless I was barking mad I wouldn't be saying these things. Hope you're well :-)

Theorist Three


I hope you guys don't mind I just wanted to add my 2 pence worth lol. Oz when I was studying law at University I came across some very strange facts for my dissertation on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Many years down the line and thousands of hours of research I can confirm, I'm afraid to say, that the basis of what Theorist One is saying is in fact true. The EU, and indeed other global institutions like the UN, are certainly not what they appear to be. In principle I am all for the EU and greater integration of nation states. However, because of the people who are the main actors in this movement, I am currently against the EU. That is because, in plain language, we have been lied to and deceived about the true nature and intentions of such institutions as the EU and UN. I am not a nationalist in the conventional sense but I am very aware that using such labels is often very misleading. Anti-nationalist sentiments have been, for some time now, been voiced in the global media to slowly alter the perceptions of peoples. When it served the oligarchies' agenda then it was ok to express such an opinion - eg Churchill's Britain or the Nazis (don't forget GB supported Hitler at first). However, with the emerging of trade treaties like NAFTA, nationalism had to be demonised because protective trade barriers were not permitted in the New Order of things. This as an absolute deception - NATFA and anti-nationalist sentiments = imperialism. Consider also the labels like left wing, right wing. Many people are often surprised to learn that extreme left wing is actually the same as extreme right wing - a centralised controlled dictatorship!


I discovered also that behind the show of global politics there is a group of people who are really running the show - they comprise the international bankers and wealthy family elites of the world (some people call them collectively as the Illuminati). This is a fact, one that is becoming increasingly obvious. For example, Professor Sutton has documented how this global elite funded Hitler's rise to power, indeed funded ALL sides of the conflict - note also that at the core of this banking elite were Jewish bankers!! Perhaps most strangely of all, these capitalist banker "elites" also instigated the communist movement! Mainstream history teaches that the Bolshevik Revolution was a revolt of the down-trodden masses against the wealthy capitalists. This is a lie, the Western banking elites funded and used the likes of Marx and Lenin to usher in the era of communism. This all makes sense when you realise after the 1917 Revolution the Marxists (mainly Jewish) seized control of Russia and stole its wealth. What did the ordinary revolutionaries get out of it? They got a dictatorship!


From such a perspective, an anti-EU or UN sentiments don't necessarily reflect a nationalist or antagonistic view point. It is rooted more, I would suggest, in concern that many people are being duped into believing regional groupings (like the EU) and institutions have a benevolent agenda when in fact they were created by and for the purpose of the global elite to consolidate their power base. In truth we are all being lied to about the true nature of the Eu and what they are trying to achieve - democracy doesn't really exist.... it is an illusion because it matters not whom we "vote" into power, these are only the puppets doing the bidding of their oligarchy masters. One basic fact alone proves this: money issuance is in private hands via the central banking system. A people issuing its own currency is the fundamental bases of a free and democratise nation. This is why our governments borrow money when it could, and indeed should, print its own money - hence where the real power lies. A central bank is the main pillar of the communist manifesto, along with a graduated income tax - we have both. People are often shocked when I tell them that we are more communist than a democracy.


Your disbelief is understandable because we have all been brought up on lies upon lies. It is not possible to see the magnitude of the deception without doing some considerable personal research.

Oz Tvc


I don't disbelieve anything; just looking for clarification and connections in your arguments.


What is the end purpose of this global conspiracy? Why do you, personally, want to stop it? Who else believes this conspiracy theory? ...being against global multinationalism is now not part of the argument? How do you know what you believe is true with any certainty and you aren't being fed a line like you say the rest of us are? We all believe some doctrine or dogma don't we? Is communism, collectivism, integration to be feared and if so why? What are your alternatives the the structures you say we have now?

Anyway, lots of food for thought there guys! Give me a bit of processing / research time and I'll get back to this thread soon...

Foundation X?


http://www.youtube.com/watchv=Z69JQY929vY&feature=player_embedded#!




Theorist Three


Oz, interesting points.

* The purpose of the global conspiracy: It is global in the sense that it is the elite(s) of society. The purpose depends on your angle of research but basically it is to attain a one world dictatorial government controlled by "them." To do this they have initiated regional groupings like the EU, North American Union, EU etc. They have operated for thousands of years through the secret society network and through control of banking, and later controlling global corporations and institutions. (this is a simplified view).

* Me personally want to stop it?: As a Buddhist, and I guess from a common sense point of view, what goes on in the greater world affects me personally. This is especially so if the egenda is a population reduction and a fascist style dictatorship.

* Who else believes this theory?: I think it has passed from the realm of theory to that of provable fact. "Believers" comprise ordinary people who have researched it, scientists (e.g. Joseph Farrell and Richard Hoagland), professors and other academics (e.g. Carroll Quigley, the academic mentor of Bill Clinton, wrote about the this group to take over the world, his book "Tragedy and Hope") politicians, engineers (such as those who studied the collapse on WTC on 9/11), historians (like David Astle who traced the banking fraternity back thousands of years to Egypt and Babylon.


* How do I know it is true? I guess we have to do our own personal research and make our own mind up.


* Is communism, collectivism etc to be feared?: I used to be a left leaning socialist myself. However, now I know the true origin of these ideologies and movements they are to be feared. The communist movements were instigated by the capitalist elites to usurp power and control, using the ordinary people to do it. In other words they are a trap disguised in seeking a better deal for ordinary people. Orwell’s Animal Farm is a good point in mind. Communism, or any form of political collectivism, seek to tightly control our lives. That's why private property ownership is not allowed, the banning of religion (under communism) so that the state is the supreme authority; and who is to be the state? the controlling elites! A good book for this is "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" by Professor Antony C Sutton - actually all his books are a great resource.
* For alternative structures? Democracy itself has great flaws and, in my opinion, not the best system. That is why when the founding fathers set up the US they set up a Republic and not a democracy. As you probably know, in a republic the minority rights are protected under a constitution and the majority cannot transgress those rights. However, in a democracy the majority can override those right - thus why democracy is often called the "tyranny of the majority". Moreover, the masses are very easily mind-controlled and deceived towards a certain point of view and can thus easily be manipulated - this they do through control of the media and education. In the UK we don't have a written constitution and thus the powers that be can enact any law they wish because there are no constitutional protections. That being said, EU law is higher than UK law and is becoming increasingly so with tighter integration. So I would opt for a US style Republic Constitution. However, under ANY system corruption and exploitation will emerge when there is bad apples in the barrel. So the primary focus for me is the spiritual awakening of the masses!


Theorist Two

Think Theorist Three has made all the points I would make and in a far more coherent manner than I possibly could! Having said that, what I would add is that my belief in this conspiracy is exactly that - my belief. I realise I can't make anyone believe it, all I can do, and all I ever try to do is to hold the door open long enough that they might see something which intrigues them enough to want to look inside.

I've known Theorist Three for 15 years or so and we never spoke of conspiracy until the last 3 or 4 months, at which point I realised we had both reached the same conclusion entirely independently of one another - and we're by no means the only people to have reached this conclusion. There are certainly many thousands worldwide who think this way and the number is growing. How do I know this conspiracy exists? Ultimately my intuition tells me it does. Having said that, because NONE of the facts ever stood up in events such as 9/11 and 7/7 this Illuminati elite (as they like to think of themselves!) have left themselves wide open to being disbelieved by anyone who is willing to break free of mainstream media brainwashing. With 9/11 for example, if the 2nd tower fell without explosives, then it defied the laws of physics! - It fell faster than is possible unless there were explosives creating a vacuum which literally sucked the building to the ground. And let's face it, what are the chances of both towers falling within their own footprint without a controlled demolition! Type 911 demolition into YouTube and watch. There are so many examples throughout modern history where the facts simply don't add up.


As to the alternative to what we have now? It's something I need to think about more than I have! Having said that, I've never understood why I have to ask someone else (vote for someone) to talk to the people in charge on my behalf - I'm not interested in a system where I hand over my sovereignty to anyone! or where I am forced to pay Tax from the day I am born. This is not freedom. This is slavery. And personally I've had enough of being enslaved.



Theorist Four

Phew! I have to admit that I haven't read your dialogue in entirety and all the interesting links and all; I've got to get dinner for hungry mouths now! But I stumbled across this on the news feed and I always find Theorist Two, Theorist One and Theorist Three's ...posts of interest. We're all new friends on fb and I have never met you's but on a variety of subjects share a similar or like mind... I don't know you Oz although I see that we're friends on fb! Excuse me for not remembering where we connected on fb, I guess through these guys, I've added nearly 50 new friends in the past month and I've lost track!
I've had various people question my sanity over this year as I've become vocal with my discovery of the global conspiracy. I understand this concern as these facts can be alarming to say the least. However, I can no longer suppress the need to communicate these truths. Many of the facts are unthinkable to sane and feeling people, I feel disgusted by the lies and enough is enough quite frankly! I will not uphold this lie anymore...


I started truth seeking consciously about 4 years ago, reading David Icke's book Alice in Wonderland: The Truth about the 9/11 Disaster. When I saw the title in a bookshop window, I ran in and bought it straight away because I had secretly held the view that it was an inside job since I saw the towers go down. I was amazed by the clearly presented facts that he documents. Since then, I've encountered the same truth through other sources and it has led me 'down the rabbit hole', discovering the untold history which I always suspected by intuition. I've read, or at least dipped into a few of David's books now and 9/11 is just a part of it. There is no doubt in my mind now that there is a sinister agenda orchestrated over thousands of years by the 'elite'. They have managed their agenda pretty well so far, without being detected, and have created a prison without bars which has been adopted by us of our own volition so it seems...


There is so much to say about the awakening that many people are finding themselves. I see so many excellent links from Theorist Two and so I won't add any more for now. I'd just like to add that I'm perceiving this time that we are living to be an extra-ordinary transition to a greater consciousness which is our birth right. Revealing the gruesome truth is necessary for us to reclaim this awareness of who we truly are.



I still have many friends who challenge me (or ignore me!) but no-one I speak to can ignore the facts (if they stay long enough to listen) of the sadly widespread practise of child abuse which I'm sorry to say is part and parcel of the evil forces at work in this world at present. You'll discover this for yourself if you keep seeking. I find that a truly open and seeking mind is a great strength. The agenda runs deep. It is about control through negative or 'lower vibrational' energy i.e. fear etc. So the only counter to this energy is compassionate 'love', expansion and light. That is what I'm conscious to pursue as a healing, but the truth has got to be told. ~ One Love ~




Theorist Four


Google Hollie Greig!


Theorist One


I know that many people are afraid of an alternative to what we have now as a system. They are afraid of the chaos they have been told about would ensue if it were to change.


I do believe that people are basically good and kind and loving and incredibly adaptable and ingenious.


I do believe that those who seek and need power or dominion over others are genuinely ill or best very severely different, by their very nature we are charmed by them and buy into their need to control and their methods of persuasion. It's a bit like tuff love, we have got to stop agreeing with them and supporting them just because they've got big mouths. Things don't have to be on a huge scale everywhere organised by army's and corporations.


After all the people who do the controlling and the manipulating are not the artists or the scientists or the inventors or farmers or the nurses or the carpenters or the teachers or the builders etc etc. what I’m saying is we can all spot them a mile off! and we don't need them.


It doesn't mean we should write them off as people but it does mean we should actively shun their methods and try and ignore their way of doing stuff because it doesn't work !


They are outmoded and have had their day, they are terrified of chaos, most are unable to understand creativity and the need for it though they do a very good job of pretending and dealing in it. They crave order and hierarchy but most of all they crave power.

 

Oz Tvc

There really is a lot of conflicting evidence and opinions out there and a lot of contradictory theories about various single or multiple events that may be related to each other, or not.

From JFK, to 911 to the EU illuminati to Osama Bin Laden’s death to global warming (e.g. http://www.911proof.com/). For every conspiracy theory website or book or (pseudo?) academic position there is a debunk the conspiracy website, book or academic position (e.g. http://www.debunking911.com/quick.htm ). Looking at them you can see the conviction of both sides and all positions on the sliding scale between them. It can be very confusing to a casual observer. Perhaps because I have been educated by mainstream academia and taught critical thinking and the need for the requirement of proof all I can really do is try to question things on both sides thoroughly?


What is the truth, what is the lie and what does it matter and it what way? Is there really such a simple dichotomy as truth or lies? Or is reality more complex and flux like? Is all opinion, academic, scientific or whatever, subjective?




You believe your point of view and you find the evidence to back it up whatever you believe. Is it about the effect this evidence has upon your life and the effect it has upon your interactions with the world? Or is the depth of your conviction or insight expressing your understanding of complex ideas? Are you helping yourself or helping the world?

Is it about just forming your own theories and quietly getting on with your life and letting others have their theories and getting on with their life? Is it about trying to convince the world you and your convictions are the ‘right’ or only way to think and about you expressing this as loudly as you can in the hope the world listens to you? Or the world changes or wakes up to your view? Do you feel like a victim?


Are you angry or frustrated with people who do not comprehend your point of view? Do you do it because you feel the world does not listen to you? Or are you trying to have some impact on the world and this is one way you can do it from your armchair without having to align to a political party or a cause or join a pressure group or lobby with a cause or other people? Is what you do solitary or social? Does this drive to inform people of your beliefs get in the way of your everyday life and impinge on other people’s lives? Is it the theory itself or the telling everyone about the truth, your truth, your perception of the truth or even your perceptions of some notion that you have decided you’re going to buy into that motivates you?


I don’t know. I’m trying to understand your incentive for your actions. All you do to me is say 'read this', 'go to that website' and not question what you read.

I see a lot of incoherence, a lot of internet only based content, a lot of discredited political and scientific people used to back up these theories. Have they just been discredited by the mainstream to make them appear less valid? All I know is that things are more complicated than they seem but why is the only place I can study conspiracy theory is on the internet I wonder? Does the ‘conspiracy industry’ create consumers for their products just like the mainstream thinkers do? Do you think they deliberately mislead for any reasons? I see no challenge to conspiracy theorists from you. Do you question some of their ideas, just a little bit? I can see how it can be very seductive providing simplified explanations for complex systems; I do it myself to try and understand the world. All I can come up with are more questions that need answering.

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